Did President Mwai Kibaki know about illicit political funding? Africa Confidential has listened to a covert recording of a conversation between anti-corruption czar John Githongo and the then Justice Minister, Kiraitu Murungi. This recording, made on 20 May 2004, has been played to the Chairman of Kenya's Public Accounts Committee (PAC), Uhuru Kenyatta, who is also leader of the main opposition party, the Kenya African National Union. On the tape, Murungi refers to the need for money to persuade delegates to support the government's constitutional reforms as an example: 'Like now these guys need 200,000 [Kenya shillings]. So I'll go to Alfred [Getonga, a former presidential aide] and ask for 200,000 so they organise their people. And so there is no way we can go to Mzee (President Kibaki) and ask for money, we can't ask Mzee who doesn't give money and doesn't touch money'.